Audio zapis razgovora:

Transkript razgovora:

Epson je vodeći svetski proizvođač projektora i inkdžet štampača kako za kućnu, tako i za poslovnu i profesionalnu upotrebu. EcoTank tehnologija donosi značajne uštede za korisnike, uz superioran kvalitet otiska, a količina otpada smanjuje se za preko 90%.

Za više informacija o aktuelnim modelima i promocijama posetite epson.rs ili zapratite @epsonsrbija na Instagramu

Od nedavno sam postao urednik i autor na portalu NašaMreža. U pitanju je portal za preduzetnike gde možete pronaći mnogo zanimljivih i korisnih informacija o svim pitanjima koje muče vlasnike biznisa u Srbiji. Među autorima možete videti mnoge od mojih gostiju iz prethodnih epizoda, pa topla preporuka da posetite našamreža.rs.

Za slučaj da želite da nas podržite vi individualno, možete da posetite link na platformi Buymeacoffee i tu možete kupiti mesečnu pretplatu ili jednokratno donirati neki iznos koji želite. Hvala vam unapred na tome. 

Ivan Minić: So, it’s been a while since I had anyone speaking English, but I think two, two and a half years ago, a friend of mine, who is Canadian, came and his story is amazing, so we did the whole podcast in English. Now, we have, let’s say, similarly amazing person here, so Sarah, welcome. 

Sara Kuburić: Thank you so much for having me and for letting me speak English. 

Ivan Minić: The idea is for you to feel comfortable, to share your story, to be open, and I know you are, because I’ve been following what you’ve been doing in the past couple of years, and let’s say to give people value, but also give them part of your personal story, which, of course, many of us coming from here can easily associate with, because we all have trauma in our background. We go usually chronologically. The first question is always a munchmallow question. What did you want to be when you grow up? 

CHILDHOOD DREAMS

Sara Kuburić: Yeah. When I was really young, I had to really think about this question. The only thing I can remember pretending to be or wanting to be is a news anchor. And then after the wars, I immediately just knew I wanted to go into psychology, so we can talk about that later, and then after that, I just sort of stayed in psychology. There was one blip of time where I thought about pulling out, but besides that, a news anchor would be the answer. 

Ivan Minić: Okay, that’s interesting. So how did it all start for you? Because people who know already have the basic idea about your youth, but I expect that not everyone knows the story. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, so I was actually born in Bosnia-Brest, and then the war started there, and we moved to Serbia, Sremska Mitrovica, and we lived there until I was nine. And then we immigrated to Canada. So after that, I sort of tried to acclimate to the Canadian culture and way of living, and that was an interesting experience because not only did I sort of—well, at the time, I didn’t understand, but I think those wars were traumatizing for me, and so was the immigration to an extent because you’re going there, you don’t know a single person. You do not understand the language. The culture is very different. And so I think that the first year or two, I just remember my mom crying once in a while, just being so sad. I mean, what did we do? Is this the right thing to do? And I understand how hard that must have been for her. That was a huge risk for them, and I’m so grateful they did it. So the immigration piece was also a huge adjustment, and then what happened was I became very Canadian very quickly, and my family stayed very Serbian. And it’s almost like we would have these little tensions, and it’s not until later that I could reflect back. It was almost like cultural tensions of, you know, I maybe—in Serbia, it’s like if they’re older than you, you treat them a certain way. If your parents are around, you invite them to certain things, or you invite your friends over. And all these little customs are very different in Canada, and so I remember my parents being like, you’re being disrespectful, or why don’t you want us to be a part of your life? And me just being like, that’s not normal in Canada. And so just having these little tensions, especially as a teenager, in terms of two cultures, and me being like, you want me—you brought me to Canada, do you want me to be Canadian? Do you want me to be Serbian? Like, what do you want from me? So that was like a very frustrating moment. And then after that, I’m just giving a bit of an overview of my story. After that, I think one of the ways I coped sort of with the trauma and with all these differences was I became—I worked really hard. I did the immigrant thing, where I was like, I’m going to do all the grades, I’m going to do all the school, and I’m just going to try my best so that I don’t make my life harder for anyone. And plus, my parents sacrificed so much, so I want to make sure they get their investment back. I think that was sort of—although they’ve never asked me to do that, I think it was in my head. And so I went to university, and then I went to grad school, and then it was around grad school when I just sort of had this awakening that I was incredibly unhappy and that I didn’t like my life and that maybe what happened to me was traumatic, because until that point, I was like, it’s normal. Everyone around me experienced the exact same conflicts, the exact same wars, the exact same narratives. And it took a therapist who I started seeing because I developed panic attacks in my early 20s to sit down and be like, Sarah, you know, that’s not super normal. Like I literally—and it’s embarrassing because I was like a counseling student at that time, but I needed her to look at me and go, Sarah, you know that’s probably something we should talk about, right? And it was the first time where I was like, oh shit, my childhood really did a number on me, and I did not even understand it. So that’s a bit of my story. 

ADJUSTING TO A NEW CULTURE

Ivan Minić: So I want to get a little bit more details in a couple of areas. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, of course. 

Ivan Minić: First, you went to Canada, went to Vancouver, right? 

Sara Kuburić: Correct, yeah. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, never been there. 

Sara Kuburić: Beautiful. 

Ivan Minić: Never been to Canada. I really want to go. I actually had a visa once, but ended up in the hospital, so I didn’t go. 

Sara Kuburić: Oh, okay. 

Ivan Minić: It was a complicated period, but the interesting thing, if I remember correctly, Vancouver is really multicultural and multinational. I don’t even think that like maybe a couple of tens of percent is the local population with a couple of generations going back into that area. A lot of different people, a lot of different languages, a lot of different cultures. So basically no one is from there. Everybody is like adapting to something, and it’s a really interesting mixture because you get exposed to different cultures and different things and different surroundings and different backgrounds. So maybe it’s an interesting and good place when you come with 8, 10 years old, when you’re like a witty, smart kid that’s basically a sponge that can pretty much adapt anywhere. It’s a good place to be for you. But for your folks, it’s not the best place because they are already past the period in life where you can easily adapt to change. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, and I think what felt cool was that almost everyone was co-constructing what it meant to be Canadian because there are so many cultures and so many backgrounds, and they’re all so accepted, which is a really beautiful thing. But yes, for my parents, they handled it really well, by the way. I think they were like, okay, let’s pivot. My mom said, I don’t want you just attending Serbian cultural events. I don’t want you just hanging out with other Serbian kids. If we wanted that, you could have stayed in Serbia. We want to make sure that you’re exposed. Use this as an opportunity. Get to know different people and different backgrounds and different cultures. She was really, really supportive. I just think once in a while when that seeped into our household relationships, that’s when sometimes there was a bit of negotiations that needed to happen. But it was a really cool experience. When I grew up in Serbia, I’ve only seen Serbian people. I just remember for the first time being like, whoa, this is so cool, or being like, what’s that? That’s like a spice or a smell I’ve never smelled before. Our neighbor was Chinese, and they were cooking all these delicious meals. I was like, I don’t recognize that. It was just such a time of wonder, but also it’s hella confusing for a child. You went from one thing to about 50 things. I think trying to figure out your identity was difficult, especially because at that time in the early 2000s, I don’t know if you remember, so many movies, all the terrorists were Serbian. We didn’t need translations because that’s the part of the movie I understood. That was a hard thing for me because there were so many misconceptions about Serbia. I was so frowned upon, especially what that was two years after the bombings. Also going into an American, North American sort of environment where they had these predispositions or these thoughts about what Serbia was and what Serbian people were like, there was a bit of pushback and a bit of racism. I think that was an interesting thing to experience as well as a child because I had people be like, all the Eastern Europeans should go back to where they came from. I wanted to be like, where do you think you come from? You’re third-generation Polish. That was the part that was really shocking to me, but I think as a child, that was really offensive. Then I was like, should I be ashamed of the fact I’m Serbian? Should I not? There was a lot of identity questions I had really early on. 

Ivan Minić: Canada was really popular during the 90s, the first part of the 90s, and a lot of people immigrated. Basically, when you came, there was already a lot of people from former Yugoslavia. Some of them already got successful, but from what I remember, I had some friends we met online, it was a group of people who lived basically in a small, I wouldn’t say town, but a community next to Ottawa. Basically, everyone was Serbian in that community. There was like 15,000 of them, and all of them were Serbian. All the kids hang out together. They had an online forum. That’s basically where we met. But it was ridiculous, because there was like 60, 70 people my age. So there is 60, 70 people a few years younger, a few years older. And most of them, I have some connection with a few of them now, most of them stayed deep in that community and didn’t really integrate properly. Their parents didn’t, I can understand that somehow, but for these kids, they spent a lot of their time together and didn’t really get the chance to be part of that country. Most of them, in the past 10 years, moved around. Some of them are, I think one is in New Zealand, some came back to Europe. Most of them are in the States, most of them went to some engineering, and the States are a better option for that. But they never really felt that to be their home. 

Sara Kuburić: I also have friends who were born in Canada, but when they speak English, they have a Serbian accent because they just hung out with the Serbian community. And again, if that’s what you want to do, great. I mean, if that’s where you feel like you belong and that’s your home, you have every prerogative to do that. For me, it was really important to just experience. A bit of my personality of, like, experience everything that I can and to really experience sort of what it means to be part of the Canadian culture, I suppose. So my family sort of went that way, while many families that immigrate or are even born there really sort of try to honor their Serbian roots and stay as Serbian as possible within the foreign context. And so it depends what your beliefs are about that. I’m very happy with the decisions I made. I think I can honor my Serbian roots. I can come back to Serbia. I have a Serbian family. But I didn’t feel like I needed to continue living in a mini-Serbia in a different culture. 

EDUCATION

Ivan Minić: How was school? How was the adaptation going? Was it hard in the beginning? You told us, and I know from the research and everything, that you were an overachiever. And many of our kids are for many reasons. First off, most of them are smart kids. Second, they want to, you know, adapt. They want to be good so that they will be loved. 

Sara Kuburić: Absolutely. 

Ivan Minić: How was it actually for you, especially in those first, like, four or five years? 

Sara Kuburić: So I was quite advanced in mathematics because the Serbian math system is quite advanced compared to the Canadian curriculum at the time. So I remember going in and being, like, two, three years ahead. At nine. So, you know, like, eventually that leveled out, and I’m terrible at math, so I have disappointed my country. But no, so I remember being ahead in that regard, but I couldn’t speak the language. So actually school was quite difficult for me because you had spelling classes, and you had, you know, reading, and you had all these basic skills that I was very much behind the other kids. And so that part was very frustrating, and I remember never feeling very smart at the start because I was like, I can’t do this, and, like, I’m failing my spelling tests. Like, this sucks. And so I think it was not until maybe grade seven, so think about, like, a couple of years, so 13, maybe three years, three, four years, before I started to sort of excel a little bit and find my footing. And then I entered high school, and that was confusing too because I was so incredibly bored. And I remember telling my mom, like, hey, I’m, like, an average student. I’m not a great student. But just so you know, like, I will be great in college. I just, like, I don’t care. Like, this is so incredibly boring to me. And kudos to my parents. They were like, okay. They didn’t do the, like, Serbian thing. They were like, okay, like, you do you, girl. It’s your future. And I was like, okay. And so in high school, I just kind of coasted, got good enough to get scholarships to unis, to get into unis, but, like, I wasn’t an A-plus student or whatever. And then when I went to college, it just, like, clicked. It was passion, plus I felt intellectually stimulated for the first time, and then I sort of just excelled and over-excelled, and then that became my personality, which is also not a good thing. I over-identified with kind of the success I had in grad school, and then, you know, from college until my doctorate, I was in school for 15 years. So it was something that was a really big part of my life. And so that was kind of the school. I didn’t start off being, like… I really struggled at the start. 

Ivan Minić: And in high school, you basically just continue elementary school. You have all the topics and all the subjects. Yes. And you don’t have any kind of… 

Sara Kuburić: Like, gymnasia, right?

Ivan Minić: Like, just, yeah. There is no profiling done in any way. No. And the first moment you do is college or university. 

Sara Kuburić: Correct. 

Ivan Minić: You told us that about that time you made a decision. How was it from that point on? Was going into psychology… Did you get what you wanted to get from there? 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, I did. So I think when I was in high school, I wanted to do psychology because I really wanted to understand myself. I think that was the first time I think you’re, like, a teen, and you’re like, ah, something just doesn’t make sense, doesn’t fit. And so I think, honestly, when I entered psychology, for any admirable reasons, it was purely just to understand myself. I wasn’t like, I want to heal humanity. It was not on top of my list at 16. So I entered into psych, and the program was a science program, and it was quite challenging, but challenging in, like, a way that I loved because, for me, I can do almost anything if I know why I’m doing it. And I think, for the first time, I knew why I was doing it, and then things were kind of falling into place, and I was, like, starting to understand how humans make decisions and why they do the things they do, and I just felt it was like a love affair. And then I started taking philosophy, and that was another love affair, and I just, I loved every second of it, like, my undergrad. And, yes, it was so much work, and I did more than I needed to, and part of it was because I was like, finally, I’m smart. But also because I just, I would rather be doing that than almost anything else. Like, kids were partying, they were drinking, they were doing all these things, and I was like, I’m going to study. But another reason for it is a lot of kids had family financial support for college, and I didn’t. I had scholarships, and I had loans, like, government loans, and I worked four jobs to afford this private school. And so I think because I was also paying for it and because I just was so, I was working so hard, I was like, every class mattered. I’ve never skipped a class. Every assignment mattered because I was paying for it. I was doing everything I could to kind of obtain it, and I think that really changed my mindset. I don’t know if I would have been the same if I was like, it doesn’t really matter how well I do. Someone else paid for it. Someone else will pay for my life. So that gave me, like, the extra motivation, and yeah. I don’t know if that answered your question. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, when we were driving here, I told you that I think that the crucial thing is why I believe that what you have been doing in the past couple of years is so important is the fact that you call every one of us to get responsible because, you know, especially coming from over here, it’s a mentality trait that everyone else is responsible for what’s happening to us. It’s everyone else’s fault. It’s never us, and, you know, sometimes I can understand that perspective, but if it’s every time that perspective, then that’s something that dictates your life in the end, and, you know, I just feel that, and we’re going to talk more about that in the past, but I just feel that now and in the past maybe 10 years, but especially now, we have a culture where everybody is somehow special, and no one’s happy, and everybody’s deeply fucked up. 

Sara Kuburić: Mm-hmm. 

Ivan Minić: Especially here, you know, because everyone that’s been here, even someone born in 2000s, has been through more than fair share of tough times, and when we look at our surrounding, Europe, no other kid from Europe lived through what people, you know, 500 kilometers in the circle around Belgrade have been in the past three decades. 

Sara Kuburić:  Of course. Look, I think that’s so important to acknowledge because it’s frustrating as it is to sometimes come to Serbia and be like, why? I also understand why. Like, I think it’s a hard group to compare to anywhere else in the world, and if any other place in the world went through the same thing, it probably would look exactly the same. So I think there is that, like, deep sense of understanding. I also understand that I was privileged enough to grow up in a different context where I got a taste of that, and then I had, like, years of having something else modeled to me and therapy and all this education, and so I understand why I would operate very differently, and I never look at someone in Serbia and go, well, you should be doing what I’m doing because I got an opportunity that maybe they didn’t. And maybe some of them would be like, we don’t want that anyways. But that being said, DEFINING PSYCHOTHERAPY

I think responsibility is what saved my life. And my tough messaging for Serbians and for literally everyone, because I didn’t write this book for Serbia, is responsibility because I want them to be happier. I want them to be more fulfilled. I want them to have agency over their lives. So it’s really not me blaming them. I’m teaching responsibility because I think that’s the only way to change your life. And so if that doesn’t feel good, I get it, but I am only doing it because I don’t think there’s another way. And so even in Serbia, I’m always very sensitive of, like, I understand how difficult it is within this mindset to break free. At the same time, I do think it’s one of the only ways to break free, so I can’t change my messaging. I understand the messaging is really harsh. It’s harsher. It sounds harsher here than maybe in America, and yet I think it’s still accurate, and so that’s what I’m trying to, like, hold the empathy and the understanding and also be, like, but unfortunately, that’s still the answer. 

Ivan Minić: I mean, we’ve been moving into the right direction maybe the last couple of years, and more and more people have started dealing with their life, and more and more people have been active, going to therapy and stuff like that. The quality is, I don’t know, I would say the standard is quite low, but, you know, good things have been happening, and I believe that, you know, one person who ends up living a meaningful life can really, you know, motivate five, ten people around them, and, you know, in a couple of generations, we will be in far better shape. But the change started, and I think it’s going into the right direction. The situation, you know, with your university, when I went through some of the things you’ve been saying and doing, every time I see that your approach to psychology and your education in this field has been very different to what’s usually done in Serbia. Here, it’s part of social sciences. It’s far more related to philosophy and stuff like that than to what we would call proper science, and many people have a really distinct separation between psychology and psychotherapy. Usually coaching comes with it and stuff like that, and on the other side, you have medicine and psychiatry and stuff like that. And from what I understand, in the West, it’s different. It’s kind of not as separated in this manner. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, I think, and it’s really difficult because even in Europe versus America, we use different terms. So, for example, psychotherapy, somewhere like, I mean, from my understanding, somewhere like Austria, is a really high-value degree, probably more than psychology, while in America, maybe psychology is a more high-value degree than psychotherapy. But then I’m very conscious of calling myself a psychotherapist because I like what it stands for. So I think the whole thing is a little confusing, but I do think that the rigor of the psychology programs or counseling psychology, psychotherapy programs in America are really high. And I’ve never seen a program that doesn’t have a scientific component to it. So I think there is a very large distinction between the trainings often in America and here, from what I’ve seen. And I’m not still fully sure how the system works here, so I can’t speak to it. But, for example, I have a counseling psychology master’s, and that was really great. I have an undergrad in psychology and science. And then I have a doctorate in psychotherapy, but science of psychotherapy. So it’s, you know, and it’s like I’m an existentialist, and so I use existential psychology, which is like the most philosophical, psychological modality you can use. And yet I don’t really see that much of that in the Balkans, for example, which is fascinating because they do, as you said, like the philosophy. So I don’t really have an answer to it, except that I think different words mean different things in different parts of the world. I think the training here is vastly different than anything I’ve seen outside of the country. And I can’t really say if it’s good or bad, because I just don’t know enough. 

Ivan Minić: And you shouldn’t say anything and get your life miserable over here, but I can tell you that it’s, you know, the standard is really low. You don’t really have to have any degree. You can finish a course that’s like a couple of months, a few months of practice, and then you get yourself a certificate with which you can practice psychotherapy, which is probably why the end result is useless in many cases. And people who have been really serious with this, who have been working, have practices for a very long time, been working in hospitals and everything, in the past couple of years they’ve been working a lot on standardizing this and, you know, making a list of rules that you have to follow in order to be able to call yourself a psychotherapist. For now, it’s still pretty vague. 

Sara Kuburić: It’s not regulated, yeah. 

Ivan Minić: And, you know, you have people finishing neurolinguistic programming and calling themselves psychotherapists. Anyways, it doesn’t really matter. I just wanted to get a little bit more light on how was your personal road and the professional road along the way because, you know, getting the first degree, then master’s, then PhD in the end, it’s hard work. It’s a lot of things. And you go through many different fields and you, you know, profile yourself in a different manner. I’m pretty sure that in the beginning you had no idea where it will end up in the end. So how was the journey?

MY JOURNEY

Sara Kuburić:  So I think it actually really reflects personal journey, kind of as you said. So when I got into psychology initially, I told you, it was like I want to understand myself. And it was quite like behavioral, quite neuroscience, quite just like I want answers. I want things to be black and white. And I loved the fact I had to take whatever it was, chemistry and biology and neurobiology, whatever. I can’t even remember all the courses I had to take. I liked it because it gave me kind of a false sense of structure and safety and like this is the truth. And I think that’s what undergraduate programs usually do. You walk away being like I know everything. Then you go to grad school, you’re like I know nothing. So I think that that fit my personality really well because I was like I’m excelling and I’m getting concrete answers and now I feel like I have figured life out. Cute. And then I started actually after my undergrad, what people don’t know is I sort of burnt out a little bit because it was just so much that I was like maybe I want to go into medicine and be like a neurosurgeon. So after my degree, I applied to pre-med. I think I went to like two months of courses and I was like this is so boring. And then I applied to grad school immediately. So I think I was just burnt out and trying to be like what other career path can I do instead of just like maybe take a year off and relax and then go back to doing what you love. And then I started grad school and this was a really pivotal moment in my life because I started really young. I think I was 22 years old. And I entered the world of sort of psychotherapy and counseling and things were less black and white and things really, something they worked on in my program which was beautiful was they wanted therapists that had their shit together. And that doesn’t mean you were perfect but they made you process. Like I remember writing 30-page essays every single week or whatever it was of like my own processing because they’re like otherwise you’re going to project, impose all that on your client. They really, really valued personal work and then also academic rigor. And I remember just that was the first time I ever started truly doing something like that to that capacity. And then during my grad school I got exposed to existential analysis and I remember sitting in one of the trainings and I was already like you know when like the crack is happening and it’s like I had this facade. I had this like I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine. And it just started like cracking during grad school and I remember sitting in this training for existential analysis and we were talking about like values and like what value do you see in your life and like is your life kind of worth living. Like why do you wake up in the morning sort of thing. And I just, it was the first moment we were like sitting in a circle and I was like holy shit. I don’t like my life. Like I think because the last five years I was praised for how well I was doing and I finally felt like I had a thing and I was whatever. I was like wow and I like tried to ignore it but it was really like I was reading more and more existential literature and I was like it was getting harder and harder to ignore. And so eventually in my 20s I guess if you read my book you’ll see I have this massive breakdown. I started developing panic attack disorder essentially that lasted for a couple of years. Then I tried everything I could. Deep breathing and whatever to get rid of it. It didn’t help. Therapy. And then she was like, you know your panic attacks are a messenger, and until you change something it’s telling you to change, you’re probably going to keep having them. And that’s when I started sort of dismantling my life piece by piece, brick by brick, and realizing that a lot of it, the way I structured my life, was a trauma response. And so after that, I was like, well of course psychology is more in the gray, and of course there is a distinction between the brain and the mind and what is the essence of the soul. And I started asking these very different questions, and I used to be very like, I love Freudian. He’s so deterministic. Now I’m like, well. And then I used to love CBT because it was like a nice little checklist of how to cure someone, and then I’m like, well I think CBT tools are fantastic. But I just started to sort of question all these things, and at the start of your master’s you have to write a paper of like, how do you conceptualize human suffering? What theories do you think you’re going to like embrace? And near the end I was a complete opposite. It was a 180 just because of my personal experience, and the one thing they told you was that you should practice in a way that’s most authentic and aligned with you and how you experience the world. Trying to just use tools from a modality that has nothing to do with your personal experience actually makes it quite hard. And so I completely switched into existentialism, and then because of that I did the doctorate that I did. And so I fully – there’s no way I would have. Like, 16-year-old Sarah would be looking at me and being like, you’re crazy. And it was due to that personal transformation rather than something else aligned. And it was different than what aligned when I was 22.  

Ivan Minić: The only way basically to do something really deep and meaningful is to expose yourself to many different things and go deep, deep dive into any of them. And of course, when you start something, the first thing that makes any sense is amazing. Then you figure out there is a different thing that’s in some cases even more amazing. And in the end you have a big toolbox, which is great. But you can – and then you can choose which tool you’re going to use for a different situation. The biggest thing with – especially with those guys who finish a course, and that course works. In 90% of the cases, you have something that’s fairly well-known and easy to handle. And fine, deal with that. But someone has to work on heavier cases, and that’s probably not going to be you. What I see is that psychotherapy has a subscription model. And for many people, it’s five years of like once a week some amount of Euros times. As many people as easy cases, so that when you finish your three, four, five sessions per day, you don’t feel any kind of burden. Well if you don’t, you are not doing your job well. At least I think that. You started the whole thing to understand yourself. Was it the case that you understood everyone else first and then started really understanding yourself? 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, I think it was – that’s a great question. I think in undergrad I started to understand others first. It was like the basic generalized information. Then in my master’s I really started to understand myself. And then in my doctorate it went back to the connection between me and the rest and sort of that more comprehensive understanding. And at that time I was also a working clinician, so that helped. But you’re right, yes, I started to understand others before I understood myself. But that’s because I wasn’t ready to see myself. There was no inner safety for me to be able to open up some of those things and be like, wow, okay. And I think it’s also intimidating because a lot of people weren’t thinking about these things when they were 20. They weren’t having a midlife crisis at 20. But that’s why I feel like it’s probably because people from these parts have survived and lived through so much by the time you hit 20. And so everyone’s like, you’re an old soul. And I get that comment sometimes. And I’d be like, yeah, no, I think that’s just trauma. Or I think that’s just like, yes, I’m an old soul because I’ve experienced about seven times more than most people by the age of like 24. So yes, war and immigration and divorce and all the major life experiences, I’ve crammed it into the first half. And so it’s just like, yeah, an old soul, but I’m not sure we should be praising that too much. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, you know so much, you have so much experience. Yes, and I wouldn’t recommend it. Yeah, zero out of ten. But for me, it’s been interesting. One other thing is, so basically you started your education in Canada. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah. 

Ivan Minić: For PhD you went to… 

Sara Kuburić: Austria. 

Ivan Minić: Austria, yeah. How was it, and how was it different? 

Sara Kuburić: Oh, so different. So the reason, the only reason I did that was because I really wanted to work with Alfred Langley, who’s like Viktor Frankl’s pupil. And because I was specializing in existential analysis and because Alfred was such a pivotal figure in my life, this transition I talked about, he kind of triggered it. And he was always sort of a mentor, and then when I was telling him I was looking for a doctor, he said, come work with me, which by the way was like the biggest honor of my life. I don’t, like I think Brad Pitt could walk in or Alfred, and I’d be like, Alfred, like I don’t care. So I think, and I like Brad Pitt, so that’s really saying something. No, but I think like I really wanted to work with him. I believed in his theory so much. That theory saved my life, and I just, I wanted to sort of dedicate that time learning from him. The program’s very different. I think it’s a lot more self-directive, or self – what is the word? Like, yeah, self-directive. Like you sort of have to, you’re there, it’s an international program. You come and you do like these intense courses, and then you’re on your own, and you have to do the work on your own at your own pace. And I actually really like that. I don’t like being micromanaged, but I think in some ways it was definitely harder, in some ways it was definitely easier in terms of just how, what sort of things they emphasized in Europe versus America. America is like, let’s do 17,000 hours of statistics, you know? Like, and I think they were a bit more chill in that regard, and so that was really cool. So yeah, I think you can tell the different sort of priorities in different countries, but I loved my experience because I was working with him, and I got to just mostly focus on my work with him. If he wasn’t there, I don’t think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much as maybe an American program, just because that felt more familiar and maybe more rounded, while this felt very specialized. So he made the experience great, and I really actually liked everything about the program, but I think part of it is because he was there. 

Ivan Minić: When I talk to many people who started and finished their PhDs, the experiences vary a lot, and it’s really different. Yeah, it’s a lot. In sciences, mostly you work on complex projects, and in the end, that’s a doctorate for a couple of you, and everyone has their own part. But in this field, I somehow believe that, you know, if you ended up going to a doctorate to get that degree, you are already a serious person that can do on their own, and this is something where you have to grow, and someone is there to support you, help you discuss with you certain things, but the heavy lifting is on your part, and the idea is not to create a copy of that person, but someone that can add to the original idea something. 

Sara Kuburić: So a doctorate has to fill a gap in research. It’s not just like, hey, here are things I read, and I really like this, and here’s my thoughts. You need to prove there’s a gap in research, and you need to think of a methodology that will adequately allow you to research that gap, and then you need to present it, and then hope to God that you manage to fulfill that gap. Otherwise, you’re not going to pass, and so it’s a very—it’s a tedious process. I don’t think—people get traumatized from their doctorates. It is not an easy thing to do, and so that’s—I think the self-discipline part is the most difficult because at that point, it’s not like you don’t know how to summarize things. It’s not like—you have all the tools of critical thinking. You know where to look. You know how to write, hopefully, so at that point, it’s like you have the skills, and I was just talking to someone who—two people actually had completed a doctorate, and they were like, it’s the discipline and the mind-numbing component of doing the same thing for like five years, and it’s just like you start to hate it. Every day you have to show up. You can’t sort of like, oh, this doesn’t matter. Every detail, every comma, every citation, everything matters, and the pressure that is there and the self-discipline that is required, I think those are the hardest things for me. It wasn’t like the actual—I love talking to the participants. I think it was fun to come up with the idea. I thought I love writing, but just like the everyday grind, that’s why a lot of people don’t finish their doctorates, to be honest, yeah. 

REDEFINING MYSELF

Ivan Minić: Before the doctorate, you said you basically, basically fell apart and had to rebuild yourself. Yeah. And the premise was I don’t like this life. I don’t like this person I see in the mirror. 

Sara Kuburić: Correct. 

Ivan Minić: Life, in my humble opinion, is hard. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah. 

Ivan Minić: Because it’s supposed to be hard if you want to achieve something. And the fact that you don’t like your life doesn’t—when you say that, correct me if I’m wrong, but you don’t mean I don’t like this life, this is hard. It’s basically I don’t like where this is going. The fact that it’s hard, well, some things are hard in some parts of the journey. It’s supposed to be like that if you want to be a professional athlete. Yeah, of course it’s going to be hard. A friend of mine who is an Olympic champion once told me no one ever became an Olympic champion by not forcing themselves, not going into the burnout and everything. It’s fine if you don’t want to achieve this. It’s fine to save yourself. But if you spend 30 years preparing for something, there is not really a moment to push back. Because it’s, at that moment, hard and unpleasant. Everything amazing has been unpleasant somewhere along the road. So how was the journey once you rebuilt yourself? Was it hard? 

Sara Kuburić: I mean, I love that you make that distinction because I think it would be easy for someone to be like, she didn’t like her life because it was hard. It actually had nothing to do with that. I’m not hard averse. I’m not averse to hard things or difficult things. It was the fact that I didn’t think the effort was worth it. It was like, what is this for?

Ivan Minić: It’s meaningless.

Sara Kuburić:  It’s absolutely meaningless. It does not represent who I am. I didn’t just not recognize myself, I hated myself. I think that’s an important key here. Instead of blaming everyone else, I went, you’re kind of the reason I’m here right now, huh? Then I had to be like, but you’re also the reason I can get out. So you’re kind of the key to it, even though you were initially a problem. After I rebuilt my life, I think anything worth doing is hard. I think especially if you’re trying to do something new or something different, or if you’re trying to break out of a mold, or if no one modeled this for you. I think for women, unfortunately, we don’t have many good women role models for things. So also that part of, I remember someone asking me, Sarah, who’s a woman that you look up to and you want her career? I didn’t have a single answer. I was like, no one that I’m like, wow. There’s a lot of amazing women that are doing great things, but that I wanted their career, I was like, I don’t think there’s any. There was two that were on the periphery. That was a wild thing. Well, men, I’m pretty sure, some way or another, you’d be like, Steve Jobs. You would have someone most of the time. So then I was like, oh, that’s interesting that I don’t feel like I have someone who’s modeling that path to me. But then I was also like, how cool is that? Because that can be me then. I can just figure out what I want to do for myself, even if it’s completely different. So, yeah, lots of challenges, lots of learnings, lots of failures, lots of questions of like, why am I doing this? I still have those questions where I’ll just be like, why am I doing this? Does any of it matter? You’ll have a bad day and be like, does any of this freaking even matter? Why am I trying so hard? So, yeah, definitely. But the joy, the meaning outweighs it by far. 

Ivan Minić: When you say, you know, for us, for guys, it’s easier, I’d say yes. But I would also say that a lot of people want the life, but they have absolutely no idea what was the cost. So, you know, for many people, COVID was an interesting time, to say the least. And we’re going to talk about it. But one of the things that happened in COVID was that we had time for television. And I forgot what the device is for because I didn’t use it for years. And one of the things that came out was the documentary series for Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan, The Last Dance. And I remember, so I’m highly competitive. 

Sara Kuburić: We love that, yeah. 

Ivan Minić: And one of the things was I watched it with my then-girlfriend. And it was a really good docu-series, especially at that time where your criteria are off. 

Sara Kuburić: So low. 

Ivan Minić: You know, look, it has good music. It will run, it will keep it on TV. But, you know, it was good. It was one-sided, which is not the nicest thing. But, yeah, you have the greatest basketball player of all time. 

Sara Kuburić: I haven’t actually seen it, so I have no idea. 

Ivan Minić: And just to keep it simple. So we can argue that he’s a sociopath. We can argue that. 

Sara Kuburić: Can we? I know nothing about him. Okay. 

Ivan Minić: But, you know, the end result is two completely different people watching the same show. And, you know, what’s your first impression? And my girlfriend says, basically, he’s a sociopath. Okay. What’s your impression? He’s the greatest athlete of all time. Sure, he’s also a sociopath. You can’t have a normal coffee with him. But, you know, he said one sentence, and he cried, which was, like, for me, deeply moving. 

Sara Kuburić: I feel like a sociopath maybe wouldn’t have cried, but okay, keep going. 

Ivan Minić: I didn’t ask anyone to do anything that I haven’t done before in front of them. Many people involved in this six years of success, young players, they didn’t want to work as hard. You come to the championship team, there’s 12 of you, you’re going to work your ass off if you want to repeat something. To win something for the first time, it’s hard. To win something, to defend something, it’s even more hard. And to do it six times, it’s ridiculous. But the thing is, there are many different ways of looking at things. The way he spent 20 years of his life, the dedication was beyond ridiculous. Same like when you look at Novak Djokovic. Everybody wants to have the money, the fame, and everything. No one wanted to sacrifice all of the things. And when we end up going three times a week to the gym, we think we are making a sacrifice. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, we’re essentially Novak.

Ivan Minić: Basically, and especially here. And of course, sacrifice is not enough. In the end, you have to have some luck. 

Sara Kuburić: Of course. 

Ivan Minić: But luck has to find you working. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, that’s a good sentence. Luck does need to find you prepared and working, yeah. 

Ivan Minić: If I understand, it’s an ongoing process. But what would you say, how much time did it take to rebuild yourself? 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, first of all, I want to say this is such an interesting thought, and I’ve never really talked about it on a podcast before because no one’s brought it up. But I love that we see people at the top. That’s the first time we see someone. Because that’s when they grab our attention. That can be an actor. That can be a singer. That can be an athlete. That can be a therapist. It doesn’t really matter. And then we just go, wow, they became famous overnight. And I used to be one of those people that said it, and then I’m like, oh my God. You are sometimes seeing 10, 20 years of work before this person gets any sort of recognition. And it’s important to realize anyone you see that’s successful has worked their ass off, chances are, for much longer than you would ever assume. Even if you’re looking at a famous actor, you’re like, dude, you do not know how many rejections they’ve had, how many auditions they’ve had, how much bullshit they’ve had to deal with. It’s just, I think that’s a humanizing thing, and I think that’s a really important thing. The second thing I want to say about this is I sometimes look at a certain level of success, and I don’t think the price is worth it. Where I’m like, the lack of privacy, the lack of being able to have relationships, the stress or the expectations, I think we think success trumps all. Something I’ve been learning throughout the last couple of years is like, or rethinking that was, no, some success is really not worth it. It’s not, and you need to know what your values are. I just wanted to add that because I love the train of thought, and it’s fascinating to me. If you want to be at the top, it’s probably going to take a second, and also being at the top is not always the point either. For me, rebuilding my life, I think that was in terms of mental health and relationships and just my sense of self. I would say from 24 till 29, I really felt like I, 30s were like a click, like something just kind of clicked and solidified, and it felt very good. I think 29 was when I started to feel that, and even my friends who have known me for a long time, they’re like, there was this switch in you where you just kind of became a different person at 29, 30. I would say it took about five years before, I know, that sounds like a really long time. It’s not like I was like, I cried, I was sad, it was really hard, I went to therapy, and a year later, it was all amazing. It was so amazing, and I’m still working on myself, but I would say it took about five years of just like… rough cuts. Super rough cuts. It was not a good time to sort of get to the space where I was like, okay, we’re good. 

Ivan Minić: For athletes, it’s always, how much time does it take? Well, at least one Olympic cycle, which is basically four years, and four years are enough to do something meaningful. 

Sara Kuburić: So I’m an athlete. 

Ivan Minić: Basically, in what you do, you know, the approach is basically the same when you analyze highly successful people. It doesn’t matter what they are. Even, you know, athletes, CEOs, any kind of scientists. Yeah. It has to be an important part in your life, and you have to build yourself to be able to handle it, to be able to process it, to be able to earn it, to work on it. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, and I think whatever you decide to do becomes a part of sort of your identity. So it’s also about, like, you know, I did a presentation on leadership, and I said, you know, the thing that determines how successful you are is never going to be what you accomplish. It’s going to be who you become. And I think that’s really, like, that’s anything. I think it’s that, especially maybe in psychology, there’s a higher calling for it, because I really don’t think you can sort of separate the therapy from the therapist fully. And so I took that very seriously, and I’m far from perfect. But I think when I started seeing clients, I was like, I need to—I felt responsible to have my shit together as much as, you know, as much as I could, because I owe it to my clients to sort of model the behaviors I think they’re trying to do and be as present without having my own shit come up. And so I actually think being a therapist forced me or gave me the sense of responsibility to really work on myself, because I think my clients deserve that. 

HEALTHY SOCIAL MEDIA PRESENCE

Ivan Minić: We talked in the car about different things, and one of the things I figured out with the truly, extremely successful people—success in terms of their own measurements. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah. 

Ivan Minić: Sometimes even by everyone else. But people who are happy with where their life went, what they’ve done, who are in peace with themselves. So most of them, for something they deeply, profoundly care about, they’re unsatisfied. In terms not unsatisfied, this is shit. I see where this can be better. Next time, it will be better. It’s an iterative process. For me as an engineer, that’s a logical way of working, but someone from the side is going to tell you, well, how come you are not happy with this? Yes, I can be happy and unsatisfied at the same time, because I want it to be better. Because if I end up with something that’s deeply important for me, being satisfied, there is nowhere else we can go. So what, I’m like 39, so it’s the end? I have to find something new, because it has to be interesting at least for me. So I think that you have a similar approach to certain things that are meaningful to you. The thing is, at least I think, that you don’t let that measure of satisfaction rule your life and ruin your life. 

Sara Kuburić: No, but I definitely think it’s a motivation where you do something. And I think that’s just also being in the creative space sometimes. You are always looking for what you could have done better, but doing that without being angry at yourself is really the key. Guilt-tripping yourself. Guilt-tripping, yeah, but just being like, oh my god, you screwed up. It’s just being like, okay, next time I’m going to do this. And even running social media is a really great example, where you’re like, okay, you posted something that wasn’t received well. It’s a lot of just adjusting, like what can I do better? What can I do better? And I like that, because that’s what I need to stay intellectually stimulated. But I think there has to be a limit as well. I remember writing my book, and one of my consultants was like, you know, if you’re 80% satisfied with your book, that’s a good book. That book gets published. You will never be 100% satisfied with your book. At least good authors are never 100% satisfied with their books. 

Ivan Minić: If you are, you’re not aiming high enough. 

Sara Kuburić: No, I mean, then you’re a genius, and congratulations to you. But I just remember that really helped me through, because I think by the time the book came published, I was like in the 80s, 90s. But I was like, you know, and now the book’s out for a year, and you’re already like, oh man, like someone asked me, like what chapter would you add now a year later? And it’s like, well, I would have, you know. And it’s like I’m very proud of my book that came out, and yet I knew that like we couldn’t wait for me to be 100% happy with the book, because then the book would never be published. 

Ivan Minić: And, you know, you should be happy, and you should be proud. 

Sara Kuburić: Thank you. 

Ivan Minić: So one of the things when you look at this whole journey you’ve been through in the past, let’s say 15 years basically, what were the key points that you didn’t tell us? A couple of moments you told us along the way, but, you know, which realizations along the way were important for you to, you know, change track or keep on going, even though up until five minutes ago it seemed meaningless? 

Sara Kuburić:  Oh, key realizations. I think just because we talked about it, when I started my Instagram account, as silly as it sounds, I genuinely did not think it would be anything. I started it because a friend told me to do it, and I was like, no one reads on Instagram. It’s 2019, early. I was like, this is so dumb. It doesn’t matter. And I was kind of embarrassed. I was like, but, you know, I’m just going to put things out there, and I had no idea what I was doing. Are you going to specialize? Are you only going to talk about grief or addiction? And, like, it was so much stress, and I was like, I don’t know. I’m just going to talk about things the way I understand them. And I gave myself six months, and I was like, if in six months this doesn’t work, and my goal was 5,000 followers, I was like, I’m going to quit, and that’s okay. I tried. That was my spirit. I’m just going to try. And I remember the first, like, three months or something, my mom was one of the only people that liked my post, and then my sister, and then I would make all my friends like it, you know. And it was like I had 200 followers. And it was so embarrassing because I was, like, doing this, like, expert thing, but no one was listening. And I was just like, no, just keep, like, just try. Don’t take it too seriously. And then maybe, like, it happened really exponentially, but I think within the first maybe four or five months, I hit the 5,000 period, 5,000 mark. And I remember I was shutting down my Instagram because it was too many people. And I remember thinking, this is way too much responsibility. The reason I’m sharing this story, and then by the end of the year, I had 200,000 followers. So I think it took, yeah, like eight months to get to 800,000. But I remember being like, oh, people are listening, and that scared the shit out of me because it’s, like, it’s nice in theory, and then you… 

Ivan Minić: With great power comes great responsibility. 

Sara Kuburić: Yes. And as funny as that sounds, Spider-Man said it best, where I started to feel this crushing sense of responsibility of 5,000 people, where I was like, if I say something wrong, what if they misinterpret it? People would be like, I sent this to my boyfriend after our fight. And I was like, that’s not the way I intended this post to be used. Please don’t do that. Like, and it was just, it was so much. And so I had this pivotal moment of, like, well, do I want to create influence this way or do I not? Am I ready for this? Am I not? And so that was a really huge thing of learning that people were listening and then progressively learning how much impact I had and having to grapple with the responsibility that came with that. And it still blows my mind, and it still sometimes I’m like, it’s getting obviously easier, and sometimes when the number is big, it just becomes more of a number than, like, being like, how many arenas? Like, my sister did this to me once, and I was like, why would you do that? She’s like, Sarah, because Taylor Swift had her show. She’s like, okay, so with your following, that’s this many arenas. And I was like, don’t tell me that. No, but it’s a really good. So I think some of the lessons were really about, like, what do I want to do? What is my contribution? How am I taking responsibility for this sort of role that I’m playing? So I would say that was one of them. 

Ivan Minić: One of the things that happens with social media, especially for someone like you working on a specific field, working one-on-one in small teams, is you get feedback. You get lots of feedback. You get lots of unwanted feedback. And, you know, especially if it’s personal and it’s a passion project and it’s something you believe in and something you care about. You mentioned one moment when someone basically weaponized your post to use it for something that it wasn’t intended to be used for. So it’s one thing. There have been millions of these cases. So how did you process that in a way that, in the end, you have a healthy relationship with your fame? Because really, after a million, it’s fame. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, so what I had to, you know, most therapists have, like, a disclaimer. This is not therapy. This is just information. You have to contextualize it. It’s general, whatever. I think having that up there was really helpful. But the second thing is, as someone who preaches responsibility, I had to go, I’m responsible for what I put out. They’re responsible for how they consume it and how they use it. And I cannot take that responsibility for them. And so that really helped me because I was like, that’s not—I can give you, like, a toy, and you can use it to do harm. Like, you know what I mean? And it’s like I—or you can use it to play. You can do whatever you want. And so that was my relationship of, like, all I can do is hold myself accountable, and I love feedback, and I will ask feedback from certain individuals and professionals within the field where I’ll be like, hey, I read this comment. Do you think that the wording was such-and-such? And my friends will tell me. They’ll be like, yeah, the wording was confusing, or, yeah, it did actually have this different meaning that maybe you didn’t see. And I’ll be like, great, I’ll take it down, or I’ll reword it, or I’ll explain it. So I’m not above making mistakes, but I just—for me, it was, yeah, having people—trusting my audience and then also having people around me that I feel comfortable enough asking or being like, call me out if you see something on my page that’s not okay. And so that’s kind of how I’ve been dealing with it because I can’t—there’s nothing else to do with it.  

Ivan Minić: I think that’s probably the healthiest answer I ever get from anyone who has a million-people audience, million-plus. 

Sara Kuburić: I also don’t check my insights and stuff all the time. Like, I check once a week. Otherwise, it’s so bad for your mental health. You’re like, I got unfollowed, or I did it, or, oh, my God, why is this not working, or why is my post not—like, it gets—like, all my friends were in it. It’s so unhealthy. It consumes your mind. And social media is such an important currency, so everyone’s trying to protect it. And so for me, it’s just like I set some boundaries of, you know, I only check my insights every Monday. 

Ivan Minić: And the moment is when you—a smart person gets to see these things, gets to see how they change over time based on what you have been posting, what were the reactions. And it’s a really easy, you know, it’s a really inviting thing to start optimizing to get more reach, reactions, and so on. And by doing that, you stop being true to what you intended to do in the first place. When you are, you know, when you are an influencer but don’t really have a profession, the profession is influencer, you’re bound to, you know, follow these trends, rules, and something in order to grow. But when you are a person with first name, last name, and a profession, I think that you don’t really necessarily have to go that way. You, first of all, need to be true to yourself. And, I mean, you have a mirror—I wouldn’t say really a mirror, but a concept of a mirror on the cover of your book.

Sara Kuburić:  Yeah, I do. 

Ivan Minić: Because, yeah, it’s on you who are reading this, who are holding this book at this moment. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, look, I have friends who are influencers. It’s such a high-stake, creative, intense industry, and they’re doing so well. And I think it’s really hard. I think people think like, oh, my God, you just go there, and you’re like, it’s not a real job. It’s like, no, that’s a real, real job. But as you said, I have this sort of other job. And Instagram, I think I’ve never considered as a job, which has helped me. I always see it as like, that’s what I do because I like it. And it’s sort of like a ritual. It’s like I brush my teeth, I post on Instagram. There’s no distinction there. It’s like it’s happening. And I think seeing that impact that I want to be creating is really rewarding for me. And so that’s been really great. But even as a psych, you get sucked into it. I remember being like, only posts that talk about relationships or blame the other person do really, really well. And I remember… 

Ivan Minić: Anything that’s polarizing does really well. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, but I just remember being like, I really need to get my algorithms up. And I know exactly what would work. I know exactly what would work. And yet, hopefully, if you read my page, you’ll see I’m really into the hard truths, the more honest explanation that does not always go viral. And that had to be a conversation I had with myself because it is easier sometimes to be like, my friends are like, but you know this stuff works. And I was like, but that’s not why I’m doing it. My goal is not to reach 3 million. That’s not my goal. My goal is to actually create impact, even if that’s with less numbers. But it is really hard. I’m not going to pretend I haven’t been tempted or haven’t had phases where I was like, need those algos. Let’s do five posts that are going to do really well. And that’s been the biggest tension where you’re like, okay, I do have this platform, and it can grow. And then you’re kind of seduced by everything that comes with it. And then going back to like, okay, no, but what is the why? What is the purpose? And there’s times when I’ve really not liked being on Instagram because I’m like, it’s redundant. I feel bored. I feel like I can’t really express myself. And then you also have to be like, okay, then maybe you’re doing it wrong or maybe you’re not creating enough space in your life to be creative and to say things in a way that can resonate. And so it’s actually taught me a lot about myself. And it’s been like a real relationship, like lots of highs and lows. And it takes up brain power that in grad school I never thought social media would. And yet it’s also changed my life. And it’s also given me an opportunity to create impact in a way I never thought I could. So I would never trade it. But it is hard. And sometimes it invites you to be someone you’re not. And I try so hard to resist it. 

Ivan Minić: And I think you are succeeding. And I think you are giving all of us a good example of how you can be, okay, responsible to your audience because you have an audience that’s dependent on you in some way. Yeah, of course. But not to be seduced with the potentially bad stuff that can also happen in the whole process in order to get more and more and more attention. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, or even opportunities of promoting different things that you don’t believe in. That’s a big thing on social media that a lot of people struggle with. It’s like, I really need to pay my bills. And again, that’s where I’m fortunate of having a job because I don’t really monetize social media very often. But it’s like, do I say yes or no? And I’ve been very, very strict. I’ve, I think, worked with two brands ever on projects that I genuinely cared about. And they were all mental health projects, like intimate partner violence and self-love. But that is also part of that sort of tension. And that’s not to say that maybe one day I won’t do something else. But it is the seduction piece of it. 

Ivan Minić: I remember first seeing you on social media with the very specific type of design of the posts and everything. And the content was interesting. But the moment I regained consciousness about what you have been doing, somehow you fell off my radar. I was following, but you fell off my radar. 

Sara Kuburić: Rude. No, I’m just kidding. 

Ivan Minić: I know, I know. The moment you were on Simon Sinek’s podcast. 

Sara Kuburić: Oh, cool. 

Ivan Minić: Because… 

Sara Kuburić: Do you like Simon Sinek? 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, I’m not big on hugging. Okay. But I would really want to hug him because he’s done such an amazing thing for, you know, first off, talking about important healthy things for businesses and organizations. That’s my line of work. It’s a big deal for me. But then moving into, you know, mental health things. One of the most important things I heard, like it was two years ago, I think, was when he said no one should cry alone. Oh, that’s beautiful, yeah. And the fact that he calls his friends and if they can’t be together and share something, they’ll do it on the phone. It’s not ideal, but now phones have pretty good features, cameras, high-definition audio and everything, so it’s not a problem. And everything that surrounds the whole thing. So that brought me back, the focus and everything. I think you’ve done some course with him as well. So he’s such an amazing guy. And the fact that you did something together is also one more thing on the checklist.

Sara Kuburić:  I’m verified now. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, basically. You were verified before that, trust me. But good people should stick together and do things together because that way it meaningfully amplifies the impact. And there are not too many people like that. 

Sara Kuburić: No, I mean, I am glad, I guess, I came back on the radar. But I think also being approached by people who you really respect is validating because his team being like, Sarah, do you want to do a podcast? It was incredibly validating for me of like, wow, my work is of a certain standard or value and it’s not that I needed it, but it was very nice. And I think meeting like-minded people and getting to collaborate and getting to sort of even discuss what it’s like to do these things is really nice and that brings me to such a good point, which is we shouldn’t cry alone. Like any job that you’re doing is hard and it has its own challenges. And so building a support system, whatever that looks like for you, is really important. I used to really like people within my industry to be in my support system. And lately I probably transitioned out of that where I really want people who have nothing to do with my industry but are really close friends to be part of my support system. Not that I don’t have a work support system, of course I do, and that comes with its own wonderful things where they fully understand what you’re going through, but just like finding like, what kind of support do I need and who do I need it from is key with whatever job you’re doing. And so, yeah, that was incredibly validating and that was really great that we got to work on several projects together and sort of just support each other’s work. 

LABELS AND BADGES

Ivan Minić: One of the things that I think you mentioned that’s really important is the fact that we are all living in a bubble of our own. Sometimes you should force yourself out of that bubble to figure out what’s really been going on because you can get extremely top-level people in your field surrounding you. They’re amazing, they’re not the audience. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, they’re not the audience. 

Ivan Minić: If they think it’s amazing, excellent, but it doesn’t really maybe matter to someone who is in the audience, so you have to get the feedback from the audience to make something meaningful. That’s something that’s quite famous in the startup industry and everything, validating the product along the way and so on. You don’t have to follow any of these rules, but you do have to get feedback from people you are trying to work with, trying to help. Not just your peers. 

Sara Kuburić: It’s an echo chamber. If we’re all trying the same thing, it’s like patting each other on the back. It’s like, it doesn’t work, they’re the problem. It’s like, no, we’re the problem. No, absolutely. I think getting out of your echo chamber is important, and that’s also, I think sometimes even, not just cultural, it’s like whenever I travel, I’m like, oh. I’m like, oh, okay. It’s so good to just surround yourself with people that maybe you have less in common with, and that can be politically or spiritually or religious. It doesn’t really matter, because I think what it does, it gives you perspective. When I used to live in the Middle East, that was a great perspective shift, where I was like, wow, I used to do blah, blah, blah, or I come to Serbia, and I’m like, wow, I just bitched about X, Y, and Z. Really shouldn’t have, because here’s perspective. I think always striving for being out of your comfort zone at times and being around people that will challenge you, not always, because that’s exhausting. You need people who understand and are like-minded, but I think that’s super healthy, and that’s a way for us to continue growing. Otherwise, you’re not going to grow around the same people. 

Ivan Minić: About the moment you moved to Canada, what you said was you basically had here, so I really like our food, and it’s not one culture. It’s a mixture of cultures that were here, but it’s still fairly limited. In the past 20 years, you have in Belgrade so many amazing restaurants from many different cuisines. You tried Asian food and a lot of different Asian food. You tried Mexican food, Spanish food, proper French food, proper Italian food, so Serbian pizza and Italian pizza, and different parts of Italy have different kinds of pizzas, and so on, so it’s all very different, and we’ve been, in the past 25 years, exposed to these new things. In the past 10 years, we’ve been more and more exposed to different cultures. People have started, we were fairly closed. We didn’t travel anywhere, no one came here, so a lot of things changed. So it’s a big, you know, it’s a pill hard to swallow because you’re used to something and changing something. So it’s hard, yeah. After the age of 10, it’s kind of hard. After the age of 35, everything new is basically shit. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Ivan Minić: And it’s hard to get used to these things, but we’ve been more and more exposed. In the past couple of years, I’ve been traveling a lot, mostly for business, but every time I travel for business, I try adding two, three days just, you know, to experience the culture and everything. And, of course, we have so many bridges over here, and yes, sometimes it’s a good mechanism to be protected. So if you are in the forest and there are many wild animals, it’s a good idea. It hasn’t been in the forest for a very long time. And sometimes, you know, you confirm the basic principle the prejudice is based on. But in many cases, it’s so eye-opening to see that there is not one right way. 

Sara Kuburić: Ooh, don’t say that. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, and there is not one type of behavior that’s the only right thing. Being in a multicultural surrounding growing up there, I think it’s extremely valuable in terms of this, and, of course, traveling and living in different parts of the world especially. I want to get you back to the one moment, and that’s everyone is special. Everybody is also unhappy. It’s the best time in history, and we are all really miserable and so on. One of the things I somehow noticed is, I noticed it first in business, but then I somehow see that it transcends to different areas, is we have buzzwords. We have buzzwords for many different things. And, you know, I don’t know, it’s a cognitive bias or whatever. Like when you’re Googling symptoms, so you have everything.

Sara Kuburić: You always have cancer, in my opinion. It’s like that’s the thing that you always end up having. 

Ivan Minić:  What I learned from Dr. House is that you never have lupus, but other than that, you know, it can basically be anything. And if you’re going deep down enough, you’re going to find for everything something really horrible and complicated. But as some guy said, what Googling your symptoms basically tells you is which sicknesses have the best SEO. 

Sara Kuburić: That’s so good!

Ivan Minić: And that’s kind of an interesting approach, especially for an engineer. But what I wanted is, so everyone has ADHD. Everyone has trauma. Everyone is on the spectrum. Everyone has experienced gaslighting. Everyone is a narcissist. 

Sara Kuburić: Everyone is a narcissist. 

Ivan Minić: Everyone is a narcissist! And so on and so on and so on and so on. And I think two things, basically. First, it’s really damaging to the people who really have a problem. Because, you know, so many people now take the space and time of those that can actually help, that should work on those hard cases. And the other thing is, I don’t understand why you need that. The whole thing, in order to be authentic, I have to be in these five folders as well. No, you don’t. In order to be authentic, you have to be authentic. But somehow, people have figured out that this is easier. And I think it’s making everyone worse. How do you see it? 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, so the movement of mental health is theoretically great, because we’re destigmatizing, we’re educating. But then what happened is that people don’t have sufficient education in it. So they’re misusing and weaponizing mental health terminology. Or using it as a crutch, or as a way to avoid responsibility. And I think that’s very disheartening. Although that has to come with just making psychology mainstream. That’s like a natural consequence. I think we need to start being more careful, I guess, as the leaders in that space, of what we do and what we’re handing out. But also people are going to use whatever they want to use the way that they want to use it. And I like to sort of call out my friends. So if someone’s like, ah, I’m just being so OCD. And I’m like, no, you’re not. Or they’re like, I got PTSD, I was stuck in traffic. No, you didn’t. Because it waters down what it really means to someone who has a diagnosis of PTSD is going to be treated, same as someone who’s stuck in traffic. Or they’re not going to get the help, as you said, that they deserve. And so this, I think, is becoming progressively more of an issue. And the thing that bothers me the most is the lack of responsibility. It’s like, well, of course I didn’t finish my assignment or my work project because I have ADHD. It’s like, are you tested? Do you have ADHD? Do you just not like to focus? Are you having a hard time with self-discipline? I think now it’s sort of like, how dare you be dissatisfied with my contribution, whatever it is, because I tried my best. And it’s like, we’re also not in kindergarten. We also can’t grade for effort in the real world. Like, your effort matters. But I think it’s just become so warped. And it’s very interesting in terms of like, if you genuinely think you’re struggling with one of these serious things, let’s get you support. But not getting any support and then just using it is different. And I also think people are self-diagnosing. So for me, of course, I have empathy for individuals who struggle with ADHD and PTSD and OCD and narcissism. 

Ivan Minić: And all the abbreviations. 

Sara Kuburić: All the abbreviations, of course. I mean, like, that’s serious. That’s what I’ve studied. That’s what I’ve dedicated my life to. But what we’re seeing now is a bit of what commercializing psychology has done. And I’m hoping that we start to chill out and start to sort of, I don’t know, have some boundaries around the vocabulary.  

Ivan Minić: Yeah, I think there was this moment in popular culture where different things have started to be introduced. The reactions were good. And of course, whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing. And now everything is ridiculous. And the moment, you know, I think beginning of 2000s, maybe before, but for me, it was beginning of 2000s, was the first moment you actually had someone different in a TV show that wasn’t a freak, that was just a member of the team, which was different for some reason. Sometimes it was funny, you know, because he’s somewhere on the spectrum or has Asperger or whatever. But, you know, it started like that. And I think it was extremely important because you see someone on television that resembles you in extremely unusual ways and you start digging and you figure out because no one knows anything and no one talks about it over here. But now the fact that everyone is everything in the end means that no one’s nothing. But the reality is kind of different. And, you know, it’s like gamification of life where you pick badges along the way and add it to your T-shirt in order to be special, in order to be recognized, in order to fit in and in order to have your, you know, tribe, different tribes to be part of something. And the people who really are experiencing are still left out because they don’t have 16 badges, they have one problem. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah. And look, the reality is that maybe even individuals that do it, some of them are genuinely struggling. It’s just that before we didn’t have the awareness. So now we’re like, no, everyone is sick. And it’s like, maybe we were all always sick, but we didn’t have, not sick, but like struggling, but didn’t have the vocabulary or the way for people to self-identify. So that’s where the danger is of like, is it more of it? Is it just more vocal? Are people just using it as a badge, which I’ve seen over and over again? Or is it that they have now just understood themselves? And it’s really hard to tell. And I think that’s why we’re sort of taking it all seriously, because until you find a way to differentiate, it’s better to be safe than sorry. But I think those who actually are suffering end up suffering more as a consequence. And TV for representation, I think that’s genius. I love representation. Like there should be representation. If it’s good. If it’s good, if it’s not demeaning or cliche. But like, I think that is heightening people’s awareness of like, wait a second. I do this. Oh, okay. Like I’ve spoken to quite a few people who never, like, they didn’t know what anxiety was or what a panic attack was. And I was like, you know, I’m glad there’s TV shows right now. Even Suits. I don’t know if you watch Suits. Harvey having panic attacks. And I was like, you have a strong male lead who is experiencing this thing where he thinks he’s going to die. What a wonderful way to integrate that into like—I mean, it’s Harvey Specter. He makes everything look cool. But like, it is a cool way of seeing them try to give that type of representation because a lot of people in high positions have panic attacks. And so I think that was a way to, like, reach out and be like, it’s okay. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah. And the fact that, you know, so many people on so high levels and so many respected people like Simon, for example, you know, being vulnerable. And the fact that how we see it from over here, especially this country, is being vulnerable makes you open for people to hurt you. No, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t really work like that. Being vulnerable means that for those basic types of being hurt, like people are going to abuse that, you’re basically immune to that. If someone wants to hurt you, he has to be more serious and more deep down. But the fact that you are okay with it allows you to be open about it. The fact that you are okay with yourself allows you to say, I’m really not happy with what I’ve done. And then you can change it. And you don’t have to say it. You can just change it. But saying it helps everyone else. And I don’t know, for me, it’s something, a social thing you should do to make society better, if you can. 

Sara Kuburić:  Yeah, I think we all want a more transparent, more vulnerable society. And the only way to do that is to model it. To do it. 

Ivan Minić: Lead by example. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, they’re like, Sarah, what is the best way to get someone to open up? Open up. Yeah. I think we kind of forget that we want everyone else to do it. And then when we’re ready, we’re going to do it. But it’s like, be the change you want to see in the world, as cliche as it is. Genuinely, I think that is the only way to go about it.

WHY AUSTRALIA? 

Ivan Minić: I have two more topics we can go short. But since we are almost out of time. But in many of the interviews you’ve done in the past couple of years, you mentioned that COVID was really hard for you. It was hard for everyone. But what was the reason it was especially hard for you?

Sara Kuburić: I don’t remember making that emphasis. But I think in the work context, I think what made it difficult for a lot of therapists is that what people were struggling with is what you were living through. So it’s not like therapists were in space having a great time and everyone else was in lockdown. And now you’re like, okay, cool. It was the fact that you were not only trying to manage your own reactions and responses to going through something like this, but then you got piled on by everyone else who’s doing it. And some people had it much worse. And that’s making space for it. So I think that’s what it was. It was just the type of intensity, and everyone was always in a crisis mode. And so imagine doing therapy with 30 people in a crisis for a year. That’s what that felt like. And people, I think, experienced a lot of crises because a lot of things came up for them in isolation or because they felt under-stimulated. Some people created some trauma for themselves. And so I think that’s what made that period feel really intense, of like, we’re all going through the same thing. And yet we’re sort of responding like the first responders of like, we’re the first line of help for a lot of people when it comes to just their well-being. And so that’s what, and then producing a lot of content that’s very relevant and trying to be like, how do we bring up morale? And so it just felt like a time that had a lot of responsibility on us. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, and it was a time where we didn’t have the usual distractions we could always use. You couldn’t go out with your friends, have a drink, or go for a run or whatever. And the other thing, we are a generation that had a lot of trauma here, but this was collective for all of us, and it was new for all of us. 

Sara Kuburić: It was global. 

Ivan Minić: There was a pandemic in 1916. Not many people are around to tell us how it was. Almost no one. And it’s completely new. No one can tell you what to do and how to feel. And the fact that it’s bad, but it’s probably for most individually, not too bad. Not everyone is dying. It’s not too bad, but you have absolutely no idea when will it end? When will it go back to normal? Whatever is hard, however much hard it is, if it’s one month, you know you have to endure for one month, and then it’s going to be over. And then it’s going to be one month of sleeping, but then it’s going to be over. Here, it’s an infinite game, like Simon would say. But yeah, basically, you have no idea. 

Sara Kuburić: Well, we didn’t really know what it was. We didn’t know how long you’ll stay. We didn’t know what precautions worked. We were watching people die. 

Ivan Minić: Things were changing all the time. 

Sara Kuburić: Rules, regulations, freedoms. Altered for so many countries. People were dying. I have friends who lost their parents to it. It was such a collective, and it was global. You couldn’t even fly out and be like, whew, you’re like, nope, everyone is going through it. And so I think it’s, as you said, one of the first events that really impacted everyone globally at the same time. And there’s something really unique about that. And there isn’t the, yes, you’re enduring, but you don’t know for how long. And a lot of people started being worried that that was just going to be the new normal. And the psychology of the unknown is just, it’s so much fear. And so then you see two people, which I kind of saw during the bombings too, where it was like, who gives a shit? I’m just going to do whatever I want. And then the people that were like, how do we make sure? They’re washing their hands. They’re washing their vegetables. They’re isolating for two years, whatever. Wearing their masks even three years later. So it’s just, I think people had different ways to try to feel like they’re in control. And so that was an interesting thing. It was like, either I’m just going to use my autonomy to do whatever I want to do, and I’m so overstimulated, and I’m so done, or I don’t believe in it, so I don’t give a shit. I’m just going to do my own thing. Or there’s people that were so frightened and just did everything by the book. And so just seeing the two personality types almost display was fascinating. But it was hard, and it did take a long time. This wasn’t a couple-month thing, I think, for most countries to fully open up and go back to normal. It took about two years, a bit over two years. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, basically, yeah. 

Sara Kuburić: And people couldn’t cope because all their coping mechanisms were taken away, as you said. And a lot of people rushed into relationships. They moved in together because they were like- 

Ivan Minić: So many children. 

Sara Kuburić: So many children, so many COVID relationships that then didn’t work out. But I think we were all like, how do I make sure that I have some support and can have some meaning during this time, which I totally understand. 

Ivan Minić: And one thing you didn’t mention, and I think it’s extremely important, no one knew for anything like that. No. Now, whenever something similar starts, you know that there is a possibility it will evolve into something like that. 

Sara Kuburić: Oh, I remember looking at the COVID spread map a month before everything shut down and remember someone being like, well, look at China. It’s spreading or whatever it was. And I was like, okay. I did not care. I did not take it seriously. I mean, I cared for those people, but I wasn’t like, this is going to impact all our lives. I was just like, oh, that’s strange. I was like, are we doing something to help? Do they have a cure? But I was so oblivious to the fact that this would then, three weeks later, cause me to fly out and then go to Australia and be there and all this stuff. And so now I think the opposite is happening where people see different variants or different spikes and everyone’s like, what’s going to happen? And who’s to say? I mean, I have no idea. Will we have another pandemic? Would we handle it any differently? This is, I have no idea. 

Ivan Minić: The interesting thing is you mentioned that there were two poles on the same line. And what’s lovely in engineering that doesn’t happen very often, but in life it does: both were wrong. That’s always amazing. So basically everyone was wrong, and at the same time, everyone was some percentage right. 

Sara Kuburić: Yeah, everyone’s trying. 

Ivan Minić: It’s a gray area. And the thing is, you know, you should do what you feel others should do. And that’s, I think, the approach you should use when it comes to situations like this. The second thing is you are saying that you have now a fairly nomadic life. You’ve been moving around. So what did you learn along the way? And I mean, why Australia? It’s so far. 

Sara Kuburić: What did I learn along the way? I learned so much and mostly just lessons about me because when everything around you is different, the only consistent thing is yourself. And so then you’re like, oh, I’m the problem. No. So that was really helpful. I think it just broadened my worldview a lot. I think this concept of there is right and there’s wrong, which I really struggle with in the Balkans sometimes. I’m really the gray type of person because I’ve just seen, you know, I’ve seen people be so excited about different religions and be so sure that they’re right. And then I’ve seen people be so excited about their cultures or about history and being like, no, you were in the wrong. No, you were in the wrong. And they come with the same conviction, with the same type of evidence, with the same. And then I just realized at some point that it’s like, these are people’s lived experiences. And objective truth, I think, is a really difficult thing and something that I bump up against. And so it allowed me to be less judgmental. I think as a kid, I was very judgmental. I was like, that’s not right. You know, I was very opinionated and very judgmental. And I… 

Ivan Minić: Like a true Serbian. 

Sara Kuburić: And I have progressively been really growing out of that and more growing out of that. Like, my friends were like, you’ll never guess. Like, don’t judge me until you text me something. I’d be like, literally nothing surprises me about humanity anymore. I think the line of work and also what we’ve seen, like, nothing surprises me. And there is very little that I judge. Obviously, harming people is where… But like, I have become a very different person, I think, as a response to traveling, seeing different customs. And something that we deem so wrong is part of someone else’s so right. And so that was really fascinating. And then Australia. So when we moved, my mom and the kids moved to Canada. My dad moved to—they were divorced—he moved to Australia because it was easier for him. And then one by one, they went to visit and just never came back. And then my mom and her husband, my stepdad, eventually moved. Because they’re all really close, by the way. My parents are really, really close, even though they’re divorced, or good friends. I have a very, like, healthy, amazing family. And yeah, they all moved. And so then when COVID hit, I had this Canadian passport, which I do, and I’m very grateful for. But I was like, I am not a single family member there. And it really, like, freaked me out. And so then I flew to Sydney. Everything closed down, started paperwork. And I am obsessed with Australia now. It’s what I consider my home. Not just, well, obviously, largely because my family’s there, but it’s just the culture really clicks. They’re more European, really direct. They have a very healthy lifestyle. I love how far it is from everything. It’s not great when you’re trying to travel. But my God, is there something beautiful and psychological about, like, I’m floating on an island, and people just don’t email or text me as much because they’re like, we can’t even figure out your time zone. Like, you’re a day ahead. And there’s something so great. So whenever I go home, I’m like, ah. So yeah, Sydney is now home. And that’s how it happened, very accidentally. And I’m obsessed. It’s great. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, I think there’s also, you know, when people start moving to Canada, the letters started arriving in the next couple of months and so on. And of course, during the 90s. And of course, everyone was talking about how cold it is and snow and everything. Now, there’s no snow in Australia, basically. 

Sara Kuburić: I mean, there’s deadly everything in Australia. So like, pick your poison. Vancouver doesn’t get cold, by the way, not really. But Australia is hard. It’s like you have the deadliest spiders, the deadliest snakes. You have rockfish that will kill you if you step on them. You have riptides, you have jellyfish, you have sharks. So it’s not for the… 

Ivan Minić: And sheep, a lot of sheep. 

Sara Kuburić: A lot of sheep, kangaroos, koalas. But it does, I think that’s why people are so scared of it. And I’m like, if you’re in the city, you’re probably fine. You’re more likely to die from a car accident than a spider. But, you know. 

Ivan Minić: One thing you mentioned is the fact that it’s an island. And for some reason, you know, 300 years ago, it made a lot of sense. Now, it doesn’t really anymore. But things don’t change that fast. People from islands are very different than people who are part of a big landmass and can easily move around. These guys everywhere, I mean, even English people, they are way different than the guys from the continent itself. Did it have an impact? 

Sara Kuburić: Oh, that’s interesting. I never thought about that. I think they just live in their own private ecosystem. Because, as you said, they’re not as connected to someone else. So, yeah, they have a very tangible culture to it. And I find, at least in Australia, especially as someone who spends so much time in New York, they’re so much more laid back. I feel like there’s a lot more of like, what can we do to enjoy where we are? Because they can’t constantly just leave all the time. And so, all I’ve noticed is that they’re a lot more laid back. 

Ivan Minić: And I think, especially being focused on Japan, for example. I spent some time there. They are more self-aware. They are more aware about the surroundings, the nature, the environment. And they’re more self-sufficient. So, yeah, we can see everything on the Internet and television. But if something is not available there, they’re not going to cry as hard as people who are basically spoiled, being in Europe or the US. They’re going to be fine with it. Some people are going to cry about it, and then they’ll order it. But basically, I think self-reliance in these communities is far more advanced. Especially Japan and the fact that they take care of pretty much everything. 

Sara Kuburić: Japan is so cool, I feel like. 

Ivan Minić: The nature was amazing. Everything was amazing. And it doesn’t get there if you don’t deal with it, if you don’t care about it, if you don’t clean the environment and so on, which is something we frequently take for granted. And that’s why things are happening. 

Sara Kuburić: Maybe there is a more sense of that responsibility and stewardship. And the ecosystem in Australia is something they really try to preserve. It’s why you can’t import things or why you can’t, when you fly, you have to toss all your food and all this stuff. And so they’re really careful. And I do think Aussies are really proud of their country and really love all the—obviously, every country has its things. But the majority of people I speak to are really proud of their beaches and their coffee and their nature. And I think there’s something really beautiful about being able to feel invested in your own culture and then also to be proud of your culture. And that’s a really cool thing to see. 

MY BOOK AND PUBLISHING

Ivan Minić: Another topic is that your book came out last year, and it was translated also into Serbian. We have a Serbian version here. Globally, it’s been a big hit. Locally, also, it has been quite popular. And that’s all fairly logical and makes sense. But the fact that you started your own publishing house and that you focus on really interesting authors and books that usually wouldn’t—from a commercial perspective, they would probably never be translated and published here, and you decided to go there. I just want to know the motivation and the basic plan on what you’ve been doing. 

Sara Kuburić: So for me, I think mental health advocacy is important, and I think education is power. And I think, for me, mental health education or leadership, anything that’s about the mind and well-being, is really important. And so I remember when my book came out, I was really excited and proud to see my book here. And then I started to notice that some of the world’s greatest authors weren’t published here, and they were my friends, and I was very surprised. And people are like, there isn’t really a market here. I don’t think people are interested in reading as much anymore. And I think I just fundamentally disagree with that. And for me, I was like, okay, what is the best way to get that type of information? And so that’s when the publishing house sort of came about. And so I published essentially psychology, poetry, and leadership. And I handpick every single book. I usually know every single author because I care about their work. But I also care about the type of person I’m promoting. And so that’s kind of how I started. I’m very excited. But I do hope it’s more than just a publishing house. My goal is to start a community of people who genuinely care, who want to think about things, who want to create something, who want to create change, who want to take responsibility. And so for me, it’s just hopefully, you know, it’s a publishing house that hopefully will have a little movement happening because I would love to have a community in Serbia. And I would love to create a community in Serbia. And so that’s kind of what I’m hoping it’ll be. And we’re going to have lots of new titles coming and exposing people to different perspectives. I don’t even need you to agree with every perspective. But I think the point is just to be like, it’s almost like traveling. It’s like when you go into that book, you go into that person’s world. And I want you just to taste things and see what works for you and what doesn’t because I think every culture has, like, a prevalent narrative. And sometimes we get stuck in that. And so I want it to be thought-provoking and challenging and fun. And I want to bring back the joy of reading high-quality books. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah, and I do believe that, you know, we don’t have to agree on opinions. We don’t have to agree on perspectives. But we should probably agree on the basic, you know, basic set of values in order to be able to do something together. And the opinions and the ideas are there to enrich all of us. You don’t have to agree, but the fact that you heard some opinion might change something. It doesn’t have to change everything. But it’s very valuable, you know, in the long run. 

Sara Kuburić: It’s like take what works, toss what doesn’t. And it’s not about me being like, I think all of Serbia should think differently about things. Not at all. It’s like I think there’s amazing literature from Russia, from Germany, from my favorite. I mean, Dostoevsky is my favorite author. Herman Hesse is my favorite author. Like, I just, I love Andrić. I mean, like, his books are amazing. Like, there’s amazing things everywhere. I cannot sell you Serbian books because I don’t know the Serbian authors. I’m not as plugged in. And so my contribution is bringing you authors that I do know and love. That’s not to say it’s like the only way and that you need to love the perspective. But I just think the more, that’s like enriching. I love like reading literature from different cultures. And so that was my goal here. 

Ivan Minić: Well, maybe in five years it can go the other way around as well. 

Sara Kuburić: Oh, that would be incredible. Exactly. And I would love to get more into like the literary world in Serbia and learn about the great authors or young upcoming authors. And I would love like, these are all goals and aspirations I have to support local talent in these publishing houses. It’s not just about bringing in. That’s part of it. But really, I would love to get my hands on some raw talent. Yeah. 

Ivan Minić: Usually, you know, trauma creates great art and great literature. 

Sara Kuburić: Perfect. Basically. So we have an endless supply. 

Ivan Minić: Yeah. Sarah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the things you’ve been doing. It’s made the world a better place. And I wouldn’t say it’s a small margin because of the whole impact you have. But especially thank you so much for caring about where you came from. Because it’s fairly easy to discard the way we are. It’s fairly easy to distance yourself from that. Because, you know, as you said, when you were a kid back there, you wanted to be right. You didn’t want to be happy. You didn’t want to, you know, have good relations. You just wanted to be right. That’s something we were brought into. And that’s not helping. Internally and externally, it’s horrible. So, you know, making that change makes a lot of difference in the long run. And I think this is a long game for everyone. Infinite, probably. 

Sara Kuburić: Infinite. I love it. Let’s quote Simon. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for having me. It means a lot to me. 

Ivan Minić: Thank you for listening. This is all for this week. We will see each other again next Sunday. Sunday.